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 vitor to greg jacksons??

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PostSubject: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:51 pm

FrontRowBrian® ‏@FrontRowBrian Sep 3
--Breaking-- @VitorBelfort has left the Blackzilians camp and is rumored to be moving to Jackson's in ABQ in the near future.

https://twitter.com/FrontRowBrian?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:52 pm

i dont know how true this is but man that would be amazing to see vitor training at yodas..
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:13 pm

not in my opinion....I would cringe if he became another one of greg jackass point fighters.....

who from that camp really goes in to win fights rather than decisions?? I count cowboy and jon jones....most of the rest of that camp are decision fighters.....I may have missed 1 or 2 others....
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:19 pm

overeem, swanson, diego brando, arlovski, sarah kaufman, condit, diego sanchez, dodson, tim kennedy, travis browne, frank mir......

point fighters?
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:28 pm

sanchez isn't a gj fighter for a while now....arlovsky I don't consider a gj fighter because he already had his style\bread and butter long before going to nm...same with overeem, mir and cub.

I did say right off the bat that I may have forgot a couple...i.e. condit kennady and Dodson....as for sarah kaufman I feel like none of the women are point fighters for the simple fact that they want the female mma scene to stay legit...

I still stand by that most of HIS guys that he worked with from the get go fight to win points not a fight....

that's just my opinion and nobody has to agree with me
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:36 pm



sanchez is still at jacksons buddy

im just talking with ya not getting defensive or anything. i was just surprised to hear that considering the amount f fighters on that team that are finishers or go for broke fighters. i think the reason he gets called for point fighters is because his guys are usually fighting guys that are top 5 or 10 and the majority of them dont get finished. point fighters are point fighters but he has more finishers and entertainers than point fighters imo.

and on a side note id put vitor in the group of arlovski, reem, mir, and swanson because of his accomplishments and years of experience. but it would be greta to see him training with all of these guys and have a very knowledgable coach backing him between rounds. this could help vitor a tremendous amount
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:39 pm

these pics are from last week


Chad Smith ‏@Chadinspire1 Aug 26
Great day of wrestling practice @JacksonWinkMMA @DiegoSanchezUFC @CubSwanson @CarlosCondit #ironsharpensiron

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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:04 pm

didnt realize sanchez went back
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:58 pm

Isn't it amazing how a small portion can make the whole look terrible?

I too feel Jackson's camp has too many points fighters.... but it may be just an illusion...

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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Fri Sep 04, 2015 9:21 pm

Lately they've been better at finishing as a group, but they got that reputation because for years the vast majority of GJ's fighters were point fighters, and not in a subtle way. It was horrible to watch, and it was blatantly obvious that they had no intention of taking any risks whatsoever. There are obviously a few exceptions, but there's a reason people have labelled GJ MMA as such.
A few guys finishing fights more frequently lately doesn't undo years of blatantly overly-safe game planning.

And yeah, Diego left GJ for several years, but he did return recently.


I don't think Vitor has anything to lose at this point. Everyone doubts him, so if a scenery change could help, go for it. He'll at least buy himself a longer leash in doing so.
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 11:59 am

Triggerman99 wrote:
Lately they've been better at finishing as a group, but they got that reputation because for years the vast majority of GJ's fighters were point fighters, and not in a subtle way. It was horrible to watch, and it was blatantly obvious that they had no intention of taking any risks whatsoever. There are obviously a few exceptions, but there's a reason people have labelled GJ MMA as such.
A few guys finishing fights more frequently lately doesn't undo years of blatantly overly-safe game planning.
.



please give me examples outside of gsp or the marquardt/okami, guida/maynard, condit/diaz , kennedy/rockhold match..
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:30 pm

So I can't include the 10 boring GSP fights or the others you mentioned above in my examples??
That's 14 fights right there!! That's not enough??? lol
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:05 pm

Marquardt vs Lister
Marquardt vs Dan Miller
Marquardt va Saffedeine
Rashad Evans vs Sam Hoger
Rashad Evans vs Stephan Bonnar
Clay Guida vs Nate Diaz
Clay Guida vs Anthony Pettis
Joe Stevenson vs Nate Diaz
Diego Sanchez vs John Alessio
Diego Sanchez vs Josh Koscheck
Diego Sanchez vs Jon Fitch
Tim Kennedy vs Jacare Souza
Tim Kennedy vs Roger Gracie

I could go on and on, and some of the ones I mentioned are more boring and safe than others, but they all have two things in common:
1)The fights were some level of boring and safe.
2)The fights had a Greg Jackson fighter fighting in them.

Add in the 14 all-time horribly safe and boring fights you mentioned and we've got quite the staggering the collection of examples here.

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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:29 pm

Triggerman99 wrote:
Marquardt vs Lister
Marquardt vs Dan Miller
Marquardt va Saffedeine
Rashad Evans vs Sam Hoger ---- was his 1st fight with jacksons mma
Rashad Evans vs Stephan Bonnar --- was his second fight with jacksons mma
Clay Guida vs Nate Diaz
Clay Guida vs Anthony Pettis
Joe Stevenson vs Nate Diaz
Diego Sanchez vs John Alessio
Diego Sanchez vs Josh Koscheck
Diego Sanchez vs Jon Fitch
Tim Kennedy vs Jacare Souza
Tim Kennedy vs Roger Gracie

I could go on and on, and some of the ones I mentioned are more boring and safe than others, but they all have two things in common:
1)The fights were some level of boring and safe.
2)The fights had a Greg Jackson fighter fighting in them.

Add in the 14 all-time horribly safe and boring fights you mentioned and we've got quite the staggering the collection of examples here.





we are talking about point fighting right? because you put some of the most entertaining fighters to ever strap gloves on. because a fighters has one or two boring fights that doesnt mean that GJ camp is point fighters. this list is crazy imo and i dont mean that in a disrespectful way.

1. rashad was with jacksons for a total of 6 months in total for the 2 fights you listed. his following fights were 1 decision, 1 draw against a former champ, and 4 kos that earned him the belt

2. joe stevenson and nate diaz was an excellent fight- they won fight of the night didnt they?

3. diego sanchez- no explanation needed because he always brings it.

4. clay guida- that fight against pettis was a good fight. clay kept pressure up the entire time. perfect timed shots and excellent transitions. was a solid fight and it was against the wec champion who was next in line for a title fight lol

5. marquardt - spotty as a fighter so i wont comment

6. tim kennedy - i agree with you


greg jackson has one of if not the best camps in the business and his fighters are for the most part exciting fighters and always have been. i agree there were a string of fights that were suspect but that definitely doesnt compare to the amount of finishes, and otn bonuses this camp delivers.


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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:39 pm

Triggerman99 wrote:
So I can't include the 10 boring GSP fights or the others you mentioned above in my examples??
That's 14 fights right there!! That's not enough??? lol


devils advocate -

i know GSP is the point fighting king however,

gsp vs kos, bj, hughes, serra2, alvez, hardy, and hendriks were all good fights
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:11 pm

drainbamage wrote:

Triggerman99 wrote:
Marquardt vs Lister
Marquardt vs Dan Miller
Marquardt va Saffedeine
Rashad Evans vs Sam Hoger ---- was his 1st fight with jacksons  mma
Rashad Evans vs Stephan Bonnar --- was his second fight with jacksons mma
Clay Guida vs Nate Diaz
Clay Guida vs Anthony Pettis
Joe Stevenson vs Nate Diaz  
Diego Sanchez vs John Alessio
Diego Sanchez vs Josh Koscheck
Diego Sanchez vs Jon Fitch
Tim Kennedy vs Jacare Souza
Tim Kennedy vs Roger Gracie

I could go on and on, and some of the ones I mentioned are more boring and safe than others, but they all have two things in common:
1)The fights were some level of boring and safe.
2)The fights had a Greg Jackson fighter fighting in them.

Add in the 14 all-time horribly safe and boring fights you mentioned and we've got quite the staggering the collection of examples here.






we are talking about point fighting right? because you put some of the most entertaining fighters to ever strap gloves on. because a fighters has one or two boring fights that doesnt mean that GJ camp is point fighters. this list is crazy imo and i dont mean that in a disrespectful way.

1. rashad was with jacksons for a total of 6 months in total for the 2 fights you listed. his following fights were 1 decision, 1 draw against a former champ, and 4 kos that earned him the belt

2. joe stevenson and nate diaz was an excellent fight- they won fight of the night didnt they?

3. diego sanchez- no explanation needed because he always brings it.

4. clay guida- that fight against pettis was a good fight. clay kept pressure up the entire time. perfect timed shots and excellent transitions. was a solid fight and it was against the wec champion who was next in line for a title fight lol

5. marquardt - spotty as a fighter so i wont comment

6. tim kennedy - i agree with you


greg jackson has one of if not the best camps in the business and his fighters are for the most part exciting fighters and always have been. i agree there were a string of fights that were suspect but that definitely doesnt compare to the amount of finishes, and otn bonuses this camp delivers.

There's some truth the statement that a lot of those guys are exciting fighters in general to some extend, but what I initially stated was "they got that reputation because for years the vast majority of GJ's fighters were point fighters".
Regardless of their entire body of work, some of their most memorably "safe" fights were during their time with Jackson's MMA.

I think you're missing the point I was making with that list. I'm not saying those fighters are perennially boring or safe. If that's where I was going, I would have just put their names, not specific fights.
The point I'm making is that Jackson instructs fighters- naturally exciting or not- to play it safe and to not take risks.
That's what this whole thing is about, right? It's Jackson's MMA that has the reputation for being overly-safe, not the individual fighters themselves.

Your Rashad Evans example is actually perfect for the point I'm trying to make.
Watching his fights were like watching paint dry when he was with GJ, but once he left, he blossomed into an exciting finisher. jackson was likely coaching him to fight extremely safe, whether that was his style or not.
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:53 am

"they got that reputation because for years the vast majority of GJ's fighters were point fighters".
- this just isnt true. what years were you referring to? i was reading articles that they as a team were above the ufc finish rate and as a team they have won the most otn bonuses 12 out of 22 events in 2010 they won otn awards. that is far from a coach playing it safe. greg jackson plays it smart. he mixes it up. he caught shit from dana white because of the marquardt vs okami fight and everyone jumped on that bandwagon. its ridiculous to think that the ( imo ) best trainer to ever step into that cage gets ridiculed for coming up with game plans that are strategic. the majority of the "safe" fights were title eliminator or big step up in competition fights. of course there were a few that were just duds as every camp has but come on to say that the MAJORITY of his fighters are point fighters thats absurd and holds no truth.  what fighters are you discussing? because in one statement you mentioned the vast majority of fighters are point fighters then you said you arent talking about the fighters you are talking about GJ. so it is a little confusing.

Regardless of their entire body of work, some of their most memorably "safe" fights were during their time with Jackson's MMA.
-how could you disregard the "entire body of work" when we are discussing the entire camp? i agree some fights were slow paced and in the later rounds of "big" fights we were able to hear jackson tell his fighter to take the foot off the gas or whatever but that is smart in a "big" fight. especially if you are fighting against a dangerous opponent who isnt going to be finished.

The point I'm making is that Jackson instructs fighters- naturally exciting or not- to play it safe and to not take risks.
That's what this whole thing is about, right? It's Jackson's MMA that has the reputation for being overly-safe, not the individual fighters themselves.
_it depends on the actual fight. if you are in a title eliminator, championship fight, or just a bump in competition you need to get the win and every single coach would advise the fighters in the last round to not take risks. who wouldnt? it would be stupid for a coach to tell their fighter in a big fight to keep going for broke when you are that close.. I understand there were a handful of dull fights that just never materialized but please show me videos or any hard facts of jackson himself advising his fighters to "take it easy" or anything along those lines.

Your Rashad Evans example is actually perfect for the point I'm trying to make.
Watching his fights were like watching paint dry when he was with GJ, but once he left, he blossomed into an exciting finisher. jackson was likely coaching him to fight extremely safe, whether that was his style or not.
- wrong. the first 2 fights in a 3 month span were the first 2 fights under jackson - after jackson was training rashad he went on to 4 decision wins, 1 draw against a former champion, and 6 kos, he became the LHW champion,  won 3 otn performance awards, and keep in mind out of all the decision wins his competition combined has been finished 13 times out of 144 combined fights. once rashad left greg jackson his record is 2 losses, 1 tko win against a mw, and 1 split decision win over 43 year old dan henderson and many people felt hendo got robbed. this proves jackson took a wrestler and turned him into a champion. its the same exact scenario with koscheck and aka except he never was a champion.

i dont know maybe im crazy because i have people here with me and they are telling me im nuts defending yoda but i just cant see where this guy gets any type of criticism. he is an excellent coach and he seems to really care about the well being of all of his fighters. i cant judge his entire camp on a handful of fights.
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:05 pm

OK, that's a whole lot of post right there. Where to begin? lol

I'll start by saying you're absolutely right about Rashad.
I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying in your previous post that Rashad was with GJ ONLY for the two fights that I listed and then moved on. I thought that seemed too short a time, but I didn't look into it and just took your word for it (even though that's not actually what you meant! lol).
So yeah, he's an exception. My mistake.

As far as the rest, I really do still think you're misconstruing what I'm trying to say.

GJ is a great coach and a fantastic strategist. I'm not trying to disregard that. He has great fighters at his gym, and a lot of them. That's why they have been so successful.
With that said, let me again try to clarify what I mean when I say "the vast majority of his fighters were point fighters" and why I don't mean that as a blanket statement for their entire careers.
I've pointed to specific fights, but moving on from splitting hairs and for the sake of keeping this as short as possible, I'm just gonna go ahead and say that it's common knowledge that GJ MMA has or at least had at one time a reputation for being overly safe. Let's just get that out of the way. It is or was a real thing, so I'm not making it up or anything.
Now when I say a given GJ fighter was at one time a "point fighter" or a "safe" fighter, I mean they were at least at one time, and that's typically a reflection of the coaching. I don't mean they always have been or always will be. I mean they were at one time.
And as I've already stated, the gym as a whole has most definitely gone away from being overly safe recently, so if people are still claiming that GJ is training fighters to be overly safe, I would agree with you that they would be wrong in saying so.
But what I'm arguing is that at one time, in the recent past, the label was justified. And it was justified because at one time, there were A LOT of fights with a GJ fighter competing in them that were snoozefests (including but not limited to the fights I listed above).
I'm not saying the fights were bad from a technical standpoint or that they weren't smart strategies. I'm saying that they were boring.
Now when you have a lot of prominent fighters from your gym fighting in high-profile fights in which your fighters look to be playing it safe over the stretch of a couple of years, you're gonna get that label.
And again, the problem seems to have been corrected, because you see a lot more of his fighters going for it and letting loose in their fights lately, and that includes fighters that I indentified above as competing in safe fights.

So yes; GJ had a justified reputation at one time of doing that.
No; He shouldn't still have to carry that label.
No; Just because a fighter was an overly safe fighter at one time under GJ, that doesn't mean I think he should be labeled a point fighter forever.
Yes; I think the reason the fighters I'm talking about were AT ONE TIME point fighters was a direct result of GJ encouraging that strategy.

(I hope that last part clears up this misunderstanding)


drainbamage wrote:
what fighters are you discussing? because in one statement you mentioned the vast majority of fighters are point fighters then you said you arent talking about the fighters you are talking about GJ. so it is a little confusing.
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:22 am

we both agree greg jackson is a great coach.
we both agree that this camp produces exciting fighters
we both agree that this camp finishes fights
we both agree that there were a handful of fights that they were advised to solidify the win even if it meant to point fight the last round...

agree?
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:23 pm

A slight revision to that last point;

We both agree there were a handful of fights that they were advised to play in unnecessarily safe for the majority or all of the fight and try to win on points.

Agree?

Wink
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:45 pm

jesus trigg you couldnt just agree damn it... lol

my last question is

do we have proof that GJ advised them to play it unnecessarily safe for the majority or all of the fight and try to win on points.


yes or no?
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PostSubject: Re: vitor to greg jacksons??   Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:14 pm

Well I don't think its a coincidence if that's what you mean.

If this were a court of law and GJ was on trial for this, I'm betting there'd be plenty of evidence in the form of witness testimony and such, I'll just put it that way.

But yeah, at least we've narrowed it down to our exact point of contention. lol
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