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 Champ not the champ until he defends the title.

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Krieger
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PostSubject: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:32 pm

We keep talking about the legitimacy of "Cormier the champ". Technically of course he is but my view has always been...

"You are NOT the champ until you defend the title."

That's my opinion and I hold it to be true. We will see when Cormier fights Gus.
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Triggerman99
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:20 pm

Neither Cormier nor any other LHW will really be the champ until they beat Jones.

I don't like it, but it's hard to say otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:24 pm

Well I'm not even sure he can get by Gus so... We will see. I agree with Trigger, unfortunately no one is the "real" Champ until they beat Bones.

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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:04 pm

I'm not sure how much i would agree with that. I mean what if Bones never comes back? Does that mean no one will ever be the true champ? To a point that means there will never be a true WW champ cause nobody beat GSP for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:20 pm

If Jones isn't coming back.... I don't even know what to say... what the hell else is he gonna do?
Why would he not come back and make millions?
Jones, while he is amazing in the octagon, has pretty much proven, time and time again, to be a human colostomy bag outside the cage. He might make some cash in the first year of "retirement" doing seminars or something... But, I think it would die out pretty fast after that. Plus what happens to him when he fucks up AGAIN, but this time without the UFC lawyers and all that comes with being the biggest name in the sport?

I just can't see him not coming back.

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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:58 pm

@Gecko wrote:
I'm not sure how much i would agree with that. I mean what if Bones never comes back? Does that mean no one will ever be the true champ? To a point that means there will never be a true WW champ cause nobody beat GSP for it.

There's obviously a shelf life to that line of thinking.
Of course no one is gonna call the champ 10 years from now a paper champ until be beats 10-years-retired Jon Jones.

Jones is still in his prime, so naturally it's only fair to say he's the rightful owner of the belt he never lost, especially when the guys currently fighting over it are fighters he's already defeated (the current champ was in fact defeated handily).

I mean be honest with yourself; do you really view Cormier- right now, at this point in time- as the best LHW in the world and rightful owner of the title? Your opinion may change in 5 years if Jones doesn't come back, but I'm betting you and every other person of sound mind currently doesn't even have to think twice about who the best is right now, and it's not Daniel Cormier.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:50 am

Meh i dont really feel that way. I mean yeah it will always be out there that he never beat Jones, but I dont not consider him the champ because of it. Its not like he won the belt from Jones by cheating or something.
Jones got busted for coke and then hit a pregnant woman and ran off. Fuck him. He's not the champ anymore in my book until he wins the belt back.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:27 am

@Triggerman99 wrote:

@Gecko wrote:
I'm not sure how much i would agree with that. I mean what if Bones never comes back? Does that mean no one will ever be the true champ? To a point that means there will never be a true WW champ cause nobody beat GSP for it.


There's obviously a shelf life to that line of thinking.
Of course no one is gonna call the champ 10 years from now a paper champ until be beats 10-years-retired Jon Jones.

Jones is still in his prime, so naturally it's only fair to say he's the rightful owner of the belt he never lost, especially when the guys currently fighting over it are fighters he's already defeated (the current champ was in fact defeated handily).

I mean be honest with yourself; do you really view Cormier- right now, at this point in time- as the best LHW in the world and rightful owner of the title? Your opinion may change in 5 years if Jones doesn't come back, but I'm betting you and every other person of sound mind currently doesn't even have to think twice about who the best is right now, and it's not Daniel Cormier.


GSP is still in his prime though too and nobody beat him for his title and it hasnt been 10 years either so by that logic Lawler is not the rightful champ. As far as DC goes. No i dont think he is the best LHW in the world. But i do look at him as the rightful champ. He won the belt fair and square. The fact that Jones was a moron for doing what he did and was stripped of that title to me is no differnt than losing it. If DC won an interim belt this would be a different story but it is the legit LHW title so yes DC is the rightful champ right now.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:06 pm

Well I actually don't view Lawler as the rightful champ, because of that very line of thinking I also applied to the situation with the LHW title. Maybe that's just me, but I really don't see how anyone could not view GSP as the rightful champ.
And let me clarify what I mean when I say "rightful champ".
Obviously GSP voluntarily relinquished his actual "title", and Jones justifiably had his "title" taken away from him. So of course in that sense, yes, they no longer technically are the champion anymore.
But to me that's just a technicality. When I say "rightful champ", I mean nobody has proven they aren't the champs by defeating them, so in the bigger picture picture, they're still the baddest dog in the neighborhood even though they're now locked in the house. To me, if you didn't win the title from the champ, how can you walk around calling yourself the champ? (with the obvious exception of the champs being stripped of the title because of PEDs)
With that said, how can you view being stripped of the title as the same thing as losing it? Especially when the guy now holding it was recently handily defeated by the guy it was stripped away from?
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Thu Oct 01, 2015 12:36 pm

I believe that is called the "Lineal Champion"

http://www.fightmatrix.com/lineal-championship-histories/

Pretty cool site that follows the lineage of all the weight classes.
Cerrone is apparently the 155 lineal champ

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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:56 pm

No, that's not what I mean. I mean organizationally, as in the UFC champ is Jon Jones (or GSP in the other example) until somebody beats Jon Jones (or GSP) while all the fighters in question are reasonably still in their prime.

Linear championships are retarded. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:47 am

I dont look at it that way. I have no problem saying that Daniel Cormier is not the best LHW in the world. Thats no issue to me, but in my eyes he is the champion.

Same with Lawler and actually especially in Lawlers case. You want to say Lawler is not better than GSP I will say no problem at all. But to say he isnt the rightful champion. I dont get it. The prior champion retired. When does someone become WW champion? When they drag GSP out of the retirement home and tap him in 20 years? lol
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:16 am

Well no, like I said earlier a few times; while all fighters are still in their relative prime I still consider the guy who vacated the belt without losing it to be the rightful champ.
(And like I said, I'm using the word "champ" a little differently than simply "the guy holding the belt").
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 02, 2015 11:51 am

Fair enough - Tomato Tomahtoe i guess lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:12 pm

after watching dc fight gus i think it would be a different fight for jon jonesing next time.. dc with confidence is a scary man and he already fought jonesing so im actually going to side with DC for the win next time
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 09, 2015 12:51 pm

Defended the title, did well, DC vs Jones will be a BIIIIIIIIG ppv. Still hoping for the guy who runs down pregnant women .... but that's a flaw in my personality.... heh bounce
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PostSubject: Re: Champ not the champ until he defends the title.   Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:10 pm

Yeah at least now we won't have to debate who the "real" champ is. Jones is undoubtedly still in his prime, so if Cormier beats him, there's no question.
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