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 Dillashaw vs Cruz

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the commie
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PostSubject: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:10 am

how can we trust the judges anymore.
first of all, in my opinion, Dillashaw won. Cruz moved a lot more but that is it, he just moved. landed no more than Dillashaw. The harder punches went to Dillashaw and so did aggression. I think TJ figured Cruz out.
Very close fight, but Dillashaw did not lose.
How can we trust the judging in ufc when this fight was similar to Lawler vs Condit, with the exception that the less jerky fighter did better, but the result was the exact opposite.
I can come to only one...two conclusions.
One is that judges really do not understand martial arts
and two is that they fall in love with stories, instead of being unbiased. Listening to Rogan and Goldberg, and that Brian Stan and Ariel was excruciating. They were about to kneel in front of Cruz and it all just seemed preordained.
The same way they are in love with Lawler's story.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:58 am

I thought Dillishaw won, but that fight left me sort of exhausted.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 1:15 pm

I thought Cruz won pretty handily. In fact, I'm surprised it was a split decision. I had it 3-2 Cruz, and arguably 4-1.
Both fighters were hopping around a lot so it was hard to see exactly what was happening, but I don't think TJ landed one clean shot on Cruz until late in the 2nd round.
The only thing that made the fight even remotely close was the obvious injury to Cruz's leg late in the fight. If that doesn't happen, Cruz continues to be 2 steps ahead of Dillashaw for 5 rounds.
It was a very impressive fight for Cruz. He made Dilly look slow, which nobody has been able to do.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 2:39 pm

As much as it pains me to say it... I agree with Triggerman. I was shocked with the split, decision. Cruz looked the fresher, more agile and accurate fighter, while TJ appeared flat footed and half gassed half of the time. Dillashaw missed big and often and was rarely able to dictate the pace. He also got taken down multiple times, while he did get back up fast, it was still a clear sign, IMO, of who was controlling the octagon.


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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:43 pm

@the commie wrote:
how can we trust the judges anymore.
first of all, in my opinion, Dillashaw won. Cruz moved a lot more but that is it, he just moved. landed no more than Dillashaw. The harder punches went to Dillashaw and so did aggression. I think TJ figured Cruz out.
Very close fight, but Dillashaw did not lose.
How can we trust the judging in ufc when this fight was similar to Lawler vs Condit, with the exception that the less jerky fighter did better, but the result was the exact opposite.
I can come to only one...two conclusions.
One is that judges really do not understand martial arts
and two is that they fall in love with stories, instead of being unbiased. Listening to Rogan and Goldberg, and that Brian Stan and Ariel was excruciating. They were about to kneel in front of Cruz and it all just seemed preordained.
The same way they are in love with Lawler's story.

On one hand you say that it was a very close fight but on the other you are saying that the judges got it incredibly wrong, you kind of have to pick a path on this one. If this was clearly a one sided fight and the judges went the other direction and clearly got it wrong then I would understand the critique of the judges but it can't be both a close fight and a terrible decision.

Also I don't think the judges can hear Rogan and Goldies commentary during the fight so I doubt that had any influence.

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 4:14 pm

I had TJ winning as well.

I dont understand the decision truthfully.  They landed the exact same amount of strikes and yet TJ was the aggressor and chasing him around the entire time.  Yeah Cruz made him miss a lot, but at least TJ was doing something.

I mean it would be one thing if Cruz landed a ton more strikes, but TJ landed the harder shots or something.  Then we would have the Lawler/Condit volume vs damage argument again.  But they landed the same amount of strikes and TJ was by far the aggressor and landed the more significant strikes.  Cruz did land a couple of TD's but he had 3 seconds of total control so he didnt do anything with them and they were all within the same 2 rounds.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:49 pm

I don't know where this "TJ landed the harder punches" idea is coming from. I know TJ is known as a hard puncher and Cruz isnt, so maybe that's it, but if you go back to the old "which guy looked worse after the fight" standby, I'm not sure how you could say TJ was the one landing the harder shots. His eye was almost completely closed and it looks like he may have a broken nose, while Cruz barely looks like he was in a fight.

And as far as this narrative that TJ was connecting with more meaningful shots and Cruz was just accumulating nonsense punches, keep in mind that TJ threw almost 100 more strikes than Cruz (452 to 358) and still landed less than Cruz (63 to 66). If anybody was trying to win by racking up volume punches, it was Dilly.
Also, as was mentioned,  Cruz landed a lot more take downs than TJ (5 to 1). And yeah, Cruz didn't do much with his, but neither did TJ, so Cruz still gets the edge there.
On the UFC website, they also listed a stat called "strikes defended". Its apparently not the same as thrown/landed, so I'm not sure what it is. But if you're still looking for a clear edge for Cruz, it's there, because he won that battle by a whopping 102 to 9.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 8:11 pm

I'm just going by what I saw and it looked to me like dillishaw was throwing and landing harder shots.

And if you are going to use the he threw more punches so he was trying for volume argument im going to use the he missed so much because he was throwing so hard argument so pfffttt...

Lol
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:01 pm

Pfffft!!!
Throwing hard punches isn't the same as landing hard punches, ya friggin noob!!!

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:10 pm

THEY LANDED THE SAME AMOUNT!!!

lol Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:31 pm

cheers

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Mon Jan 18, 2016 11:33 pm

I'll just leave this here.


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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:37 am

thats about the same amount of damage. most of dillashaw's damage is on that eye, while Cruz's is spread around more, even on his ear.
and i didnt say the judges got it INCREDIBLY wrong, Grey, it was a very close fight. im saying that dillashay did, at least, as much as Cruz. Dominick just jumped in and around a lot so it seemed like he was doing more.
I see what dillashay's strategy was. it would have been silly to jump around like he did with barao, it would be destructive interference. So, he had to slow down and try and catch Cruz in coming in.
And he did.
what i meant is that the decision contrasts the decision in lawler's fight. on the surface, the two fights are similar. There is one busy fighter that jumps around but doesnt punch as hard and the other one - waiting for bigger shots. But like Chrom said, dillashaw wasnt lawler, he did more. He lander pretty much the same amout of shots and because he was planted, they were, probably hard. And he was the aggressor! i thought that was one of the criteria in judging...
anyway, it snot the end of the world, just like in lawler's fight, it was close and cant complain too much, but, as i said, it seems every one seems to love the Cruz's story (which is a good story) and are being somewhat lead to crownign his the wonner.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:36 am

You keep pointing to the story aspect, but the stats also show Cruz winning in every way, which you seem to be ignoring.
It's all well and good to say one fighter was given the nod for sentimental reasons when he wasn't as effective as the other fighter, but that's not the case here, so that logic doesn't apply.
Cruz was the superior fighter in the end when looking at the stats, and he didn't need a cute back story to win that fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 9:37 am

How do the stats support Cruz winning?
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 11:43 am


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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:01 pm

lol...i've seen the stats, but im just not sure how they definitively support a cruz win.

Cruz landed 3 more strikes throughout the fight and 3 more TDs in which he did nothing with them. He landed those TDs in rounds 2 and 3, but i had TJ winning 1, 4, and 5 anyways.

I dont know - Close fight.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:25 pm

Exactly.
Close fight, but Cruz won. That's all we're really saying.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:27 pm

@Triggerman99 wrote:
Exactly.
Close fight, but Cruz won. That's all we're really saying.

Right - I was just saying close fight, but TJ won cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:45 pm

And you're wrong. Which is OK, it happens.

Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 12:50 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 1:23 pm

if we go off of stats wouldnt we all agree that condit destroyed lawler?

i had cruz winning the first 3 and tj the last 2 however the pace of that fight was giving me anxiety and it was hard to judge. i think cruz is super talented at what he does but id like to see him stay in the pocket a little bit more and bang. tj should mix it up more in his fights to make him not so predictable

no interest in a cruz vs faber rematch id like to see cruz move up and fight at 145
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:03 pm

@drainbamage wrote:
if we go off of stats wouldnt we all agree that condit destroyed lawler?

i had cruz winning the first 3 and tj the last 2 however the pace of that fight was giving me anxiety and it was hard to judge. i think cruz is super talented at what he does but id like to see him stay in the pocket a little bit more and bang. tj should mix it up more in his fights to make him not so predictable

no interest in a  cruz vs faber rematch id like to see cruz move up and fight at 145

I had Cruz winning 1-3 as well, would not have been shocked either way though. Didn't think the judges were going to take away TJs belt after such a close fight. Either way I was super impressed with Cruz after the long break.

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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 2:44 pm

I had Cruz edging it out.(but barley) side note Any one else think the ref dropped the ball with Browne and Mittrone? I use to like Browne but he has become one really big dirty fighter.
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PostSubject: Re: Dillashaw vs Cruz   Tue Jan 19, 2016 3:57 pm

Well, he certainly should have deducted a point after the second poke. And then there was a 3rd that he missed.

Ultimately a point deduction should not have mattered, but I guess a stricter ref could have DQ'd him assuming he caught all 3.

I was actually more annoyed over the lax enforcement of holding the fence in the Alvarez fight. Fuck, he grabbed onto the fence for leverage at least a dozen times and just kept giving warnings without any deductions.

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